Da advokat Furuholmen var på vei til Kisangani for første gang, stoppet han i Kampala og intervjuet de tre som var med på treningsopplegget. Intervjuene ble tatt opp på bånd. Det er to menn fra Uganda og en amerikaner. Da Furuholmen kom tilbake til Norge holdt han en pressekonferanse den 26. september. Aftenposten fikk enerett på å lytte til båndene, men gjorde lite ut av saken. Så vidt jeg vet har den kun blitt nevnt litt på Aftenposten nett.
Vi har navnene og også bilder av de tre. Nedenfor finner du utskrift av de muntlige intervjuene med dem. Av og til har det vært vanskelig å høre hva som sies på båndet. Det har vi markert med noen prikker. Samtalene var muntlige og er skrevet ned akkurat slik de lyder på båndet. I dette intervjuet er Tom og Sam ikke korrekte navn. Sam er amerikaneren.
INTERVIEWS THURSDAY 24TH of SEPTEMBER 2009
Interview with SAMUEL OCITI by Furuholmen
Lawyer: “OK , we are right now at Serena hotel in Kampala. It is Thursday the 24th September, the time is quarter to seven. I am together with Samuel Ositi, one of the participants that took part in the recruit training program um assisted by Tjostolv Moland and Joshua French in Kampala in Uganda. Um Samuel first I want you to confirm: Is it correct that you were one of the three participants that took part in that recruit training program?”
Samuel: “Yes I was one of the three that took part in the training.”
Lawyer: “You were one of the three?”
Samuel: “Yes.”
Lawyer: “Um first before I ask about the events during that week, did you know Mr. Moland and French from before?”
Samuel: “Yes I came to know them quite so long time like two years before.”
Lawyer: “OK”
Samuel: “Yes.”
Lawyer: “Can you give a description, what kind of persons are Moland and French?”
Samuel: “They have been ah, good persons to me and have been very friendly, like almost like brothers almost.”
Lawyer: “So you knew them well before you took part in the this recruit training program?”
Samuel: “Yes, we were informed about the training.”
Lawyer: “Ya.”
Samuel: “And how it would be and we were quite ready and prepared for it.”
Lawyer: “What did they tell you about the training before you arrived at the island?”
Samuel: “Ah, of course there from Kampala they contacted us and they informed us that they are, for they have been authorized by the police in this field .... they announced that the training would take place on the island, so if I am willing I should take part in it, so I myself personally I accept it and I went for it.”
Lawyer: “So this was no secret mission, it was authorized and also notified by the authorities in Uganda?”
Samuel: “Very well, it had been authorized by the police and the .... Even when we were going to the place, the training ground, one police officer he always escorted us up to the training ground and came back.”
Lawyer: “OK, so there was a policeman present there at some period of the training?”
Samuel: “Yes there was.”
Lawyer: “OK. Did it happen anything during that week that you were not prepared for or was it very traumatic and surprisingly for you?”
Samuel: “No, we were always informed in advance that the training that some of it would be a little bit tough, so we were well prepared for it and nothing was so like ... open , ya.”
Lawyer: “We see from the ……. that has been published in Norway that in some part of the training, all you three guys are naked. What was the reason for that, why were you naked?”
Samuel: “Of course there's sometimes were by like you would go for a shower, or ya you pulls off to remove your clothing so it was like part of the training and it was hot at this such times.”
Lawyer: “But was that part of the training that you be naked in some events during the exercise?”
Samuel: “Mmm probably, ya, ya, it was part of it, part of the training of this, maybe that was the tough part that we were told about, obviously it was not tough.”
Lawyer: “But were you prepared for having to exercise naked?”
Samuel: “Well that is part of the physical fitness that you have to perform.”
Lawyer: “OK, have you got any psychological or mental disturbance or problems after this week?”
Samuel: “No not at all, not at all, all the training went smoothly and we completed it and we came back home there of.”
Lawyer: “What kind of a relation did you have or still have with Moland and French after this week?”
Samuel: “Of course I still like them, and um they still come but I still love for security and to work with them and their company.”
Lawyer: “So this week did not ruin the relationship between you and Moland and French?”
Samuel: “Not at all, we came back and even went for a dinner together all the three of us and Joshua and Mike (Tjosdolv kalles Mike blant venner) and together we had dinner.”
Lawyer: “ OK. The reason why I ask this question Samuel is that in Norway it has been written quite huge article about your experience as a participant in this course and according to the journalist, you should have told him that you have got a psychological problems or at least you have been traumatized and that this week was one of the worse experiences you ever had in your life. Is that the correct version or did you tell that to the journalist?”
Samuel: “No because I have ever been in training much worse than this before. Of course I have been in the local forces in Uganda. Obviously I went through some training so this, there was no toughness or being roughness in the training all went like ...”
Lawyer: “That journalist, did you show me before, but did you receive an identity card from that journalist?”
Samuel: “Yes, he gave me his business card.”
Lawyer: “OK. So you have that card with you today?’
Samuel: “Yes, yes”.
Lawyer: “Did that journalist, did he inform you what this article contains? Did he tell you on telephone or through PC that you were quoted correctly?”
Samuel: “No, after me telling them what ever they required, then they didn’t show me whatever they have written down. I did not see what they have written. I didn’t verify that.”
Lawyer: “OK. So you didn’t verify that he had got it right?”
Samuel: “No, he just asked me I tell them they wrote it down and said that I read that.”
Lawyer: “Did you receive any money from the journalists?”
Samuel: “Ya, they gave me twenty thousand.”
Lawyer: “Twenty thousand Ugandan Shillings?”
Samuel: “Yes.”
Lawyer: “Why did you receive that money?”
Samuel: “They told me it was for my transport and time”.
Lawyer: “One last question Samuel, um, in Norway the newspaper has a short line regarding an assassination of a dog, killing of a dog. Where you present when that dog was shot and why was that dog shot?”
Samuel: “The dog was very weak and it could not move, very week totally, that it could not walk. That's make noise in the compound, that kind of move, anyway, it could not eat, could not eat, so we had to kill it. It had no chance of survival even, so we could not leave it there to suffer.”
Lawyer: “So it was deadly sick that dog?”
Samuel: “Very, very much it was.”
Lawyer: “Was that part of your training to kill that animal?”
Samuel: “No, not that bit, no.”
Lawyer: “OK. I just want to do two things Samuel. First I want you to confirm this interview. Has this interview been voluntary from your side and have you told the truth and nothing else than the truth in this interview?”
Samuel: “Of course I am telling the truth and just volunteered for it and taken my time to tell you the real thing.”
Lawyer:“Have you received any money from me to take this interview?”
Samuel: “No, no, not at all.”
Lawyer: “This is exactly what happened?”
Samuel: “Exactly.”
Lawyer: “And you told the same to the Norwegian journalists?”
Samuel: “Yes, this is exactly the same thing I told to the Norwegians.”
Lawyer: “Thank you so much Samuel, I’m just going to finish this interview by taking a picture OK? So we can prove in Norway that you are the same person that is filmed on the island, Ok?”
Samuel: “Yes.”
Lawyer: “And I also want you to take a picture where this card from VG Nilas Johnsen is present. I hope you can get it as bright as possible, um, we just see here what we are gonna do, um, if you sit here, can sit you here Samuel, try to sit there, well sit beside Susan. We can prove that we are at Serena, that’s good, you know you could um, you have it there yes, that' good, that's perfect, *Knips* that’s a very good picture. I’ll bring that home so that we see that. OK Samuel thank you so much for your participation.”
Interview with TOM (ikke det riktige navnet) by Furuholmen
Lawyer: “OK, we start with the second participant in the recruit training program that took place on an island outside Kampala, Uganda. The second participant want to be anonymous, I respect that and I will name him Tom. We are, its Thursday 24th September and the time is 7 o’clock in the evening. OK Tom first I just want to have a verification from you, is it correct that you were one of the participant that took part in this recruit training program who was managed through Mr Moland and French?”
Tom: “That’s true.”
Lawyer: “That’s true. Before I ask you about details during this week, could you explain to me your relationship to Moland and French, did you know them from before?”
Tom: “No.”
Lawyer: “So they were unknown for you?”
Tom: “Yes.”
Lawyer: “Ya. What were you told before you left for the island, what were you told about this course?”
Tom: “Um , I was told that I would be going for training, that it will be kind of hard and testing and Um, we would qualify after that training to security, internal security in the country.”
Lawyer: “So you participated voluntary?”
Tom: “Yes.”
Lawyer: “And were you prepared for that you were exposed for during that week?”
Tom: “Very prepared.”
Lawyer: “Very prepared. Did you experience anything during that week that traumatized you or you were not prepared for?”
Tom: “I didn’t experience anything that was traumatizing.”
Lawyer: “The other two participant um, Samuel Ositi and the third one who I’m going to interview after you, did you know these guys from before?”
Tom: “I knew one from before.”
Lawyer: “Ya.”
Tom: “Yes.”
Lawyer: “Um, we have during an article in Norway, we have heard about a dog that was shot, were you present when that dog was shot?”
Tom: “Yes.”
Lawyer: “Can you explain why that dog was shot?”
Tom: “The dog was very very sick, um, it had wounds in the ears and all over some bacteria I think was eating the wounds um, we had I think, enquired about medication and um, I think that they had tried to give it some, not others but the locals but the dog couldn’t improve. So that day that us to come and given food including that dog and it was somehow affecting these others and I think that is way it got shot.”
Lawyer: “So that shooting was not part of the training?”
Tom: “No.”
Lawyer: “Was this a secret training program or was it public?”
Tom: “It was public.”
Lawyer: “It was public?’
Tom: “Yes.”
Lawyer: “The relation between you and Mr Moland and French after this course, can you say anything about that, was it...?”
Tom: “Um, I can say that I grew more fond of them, um, because we got closer to understand each other, through um, the training and that all I can say about that.”
Lawyer: “So you are not bitter and frustrated and angry after the treatment you received from Moland and French at this campus?”
Tom: “No,no.”
Lawyer: “We have seen in Norway a video were you among the other two guys are naked and can you explain why you three guys naked during one of these sessions?”
Tom: “We are doing training and um we are not helping each other as we were supposed to and I think the lesson I got from that was we are all equal for us as black guys and the white guys and we had to work together um, in a situation were we have a common goal.”
Lawyer: “Did you feel insulted by and humiliated by running around naked on the island?”
Tom: “Not really.”
Lawyer: “Why not?”
Tom: “Well because the training I expected lots of things, I expected the unexpected and I knew why we had been put in such a situation.”
Lawyer: “Are you familiar with that kind of training is normal in military education?”
Tom: “Yes.”
Lawyer: ‘So you are not surprised?”
Tom: “I’m not surprised at all.”
Lawyer: “OK, I just want you to confirm one thing Tom, this interview is it completely voluntary from your side?”
Tom: “Yes it is.”
Lawyer: “Have you told the truth, nothing else that the truth in this interview?”
Tom: “Yes.”
Lawyer: “Have you received any money?”
Tom: “No”
Lawyer: “No. I just want to end this interview by taking a picture of you so we can see... That the newspaper in Norway can see that you are identical with the person we can see on this video so that they know I have the right person, OK. So if you just can take a picture of the, in front of the p.c, if you stand here now in front, that’s good, ya that’s good, that’s good Tom, now we have a good picture, that’s good *Knips* Perfect. OK Tom thank you so much, thank you so much.”
Interview with SAM (ikke det riktige navnet) by Furuholmen
Lawyer: “O.K O.K we are now completing the interview with the last participants that’s an American citizen. You want to stay anonymous, I respect that, I will call him the name Sam. We are still on Thursday 24th September at Serena hotel and it is ten past seven. And first Sam I want you to confirm whether you took part in this recruit training program or not?”
Sam: “Yes, I was one of the three recruits doing the training.”
Lawyer: “Did you know Mr Moland and French before you attended this course?”
Sam: “Yes I knew them for a while before the course when I went to an interview for this security work.”
Lawyer: “And could you give a description of what kind of personalities these two guys are?”
Sam: “Yes, they’re very professional, they’re dedicated to their work, security and um they’re very polite to the local people.”
Lawyer: “Where you prepared and did you know what you where attending when you accepted voluntary to take part in these training?”
Sam: “Yes, I knew it would be hard. I didn’t know all of the components of the training, but I knew it would be um rigorous training for hostile security situations.”
Lawyer: “And during the week you participated, did you experience anything that was, that you were totally unprepared for or that was surprising or in any aspect traumatizing for you?”
Sam: “No, of course the training was hard and it was to simulate um stressful situations in which we would be doing convoy security in rebel territory and then be attacked, and so the training taught us how to respond to stressful situations and continue working in stressful situations, but we knew that it would be rough before we started the training. It was something we agreed to and prepared to and it did not cross any reasonable boundaries.”
Lawyer: “Had you suffered any mental illness or have you received any psychologically problems after these training?”
Sam: “No, none whatsoever, apparently people in the media have been saying that it was much worse than it was, but it really was quite normal.”
Lawyer: “Has this training course affected your relation to Mr Moland and French in any way?”
Sam: “No, not at all, this was just normal training and after the training we continued to um plan for our security work.”
Lawyer: “Um, we have um in an article in Norway got a version that you guys where, if not humiliated, than exposed for situation that was quite similar to almost torture and they have especially focused on one event where all of you three guys are naked. Can you explain the reason behind or the reason for this naked exercise?”
Sam: “Yes um something that can really disorientate you is when all of a sudden you have to take off your cloths and run around and do rigorous physical training all of a sudden. It is something we are not accustomed to on a daily basis of course and that is the best way in a training situation to um get the trainees familiar with being disoriented. So that was something that we knew going into it that it would just be a little bit of disorientation to help us learn the steps to dealing with um you know, stressful situations.”
Lawyer: “So the description in the newspaper that you guys have been surprisingly under enormous mental pressure that you experiencing that you where not aware of and that you have got problems afterwards mentally is not correct?”
Sam: “Yes it is not correct that we have any abuse or mental stress or anything like that from the training.”
Lawyer: “And none of you guys and I say you guys and I say you guys now because I have the other guys before you, have got a negative relationship between, with Moland and French after this training?”
Sam: “No, in fact were providing this interview for their behalf because we don’t want people to twist the truth and accuse them of things their not guilty of.”
Lawyer: “We have heard in Norway about an incident regarding shooting of a dog, were you present when that dog was shot?”
Sam: “Yes, unfortunately that dog was. We would do a morning run along a path and that was one of the dogs that were there and that one had some type of infection, skin infection, but it also had a problem with its lower legs were it couldn’t walk and well it could kinda like barely hobble around and it wasn’t getting enough food so it was also slowly starving and we tried to treat it but we realized that since we would be leaving the area the dog would slowly die so we put it down in the same human way that a vet would put down a critically sick dog.”
Lawyer: “So that assassination was not a part of the training?”
Sam: “No, not at all, that was just something we did for the dogs sake."
Lawyer: “Did Moland and French treat animals badly during that week?”
Sam: “No, actually they, like the other dogs on the island, we would give them scraps of food, leftover food, and they even went out of their way to wash these dogs in the lake.”
Lawyer: “Can you just give me a verification about this interview. Has it been talk about voluntary?”
Sam: “Yes, we all of us volunteered to give this interview so that um its clear and accurate about our training.”
Lawyer: “Have you received any money?”
Sam: “No, we haven’t received any money.
Lawyer: “Have you told the truth and nothing but the truth in this interview?”
Sam: “Yes.”
Lawyer: “Are you willing to take a picture of yourselves so I can prove for Norwegian journalists that you are the same person that we could see in the video.“
Sam: “Ya”
Lawyer: “Published in Norway so that they know we had the right source?”
Sam: “Sure.”
Lawyer: “OK, so then we do the same thing as two other guys we have these photographies on the p.c and put that into the interview.”
Sam: “OK.”
Lawyer: “Ya.”
Sam: “……”
Lawyer: “OK and we sit here, good now, *Knips* thank you. OK, OK, Sam thank you so much for your participation and I will, I will present these for the journalists in Norway. OK.”
Sam: “OK, Thanks”
Skrevet av Kari Hilde og Hannah French 19. november 2009
